VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv
Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!
Be a part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.
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Transcript:
Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2
Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that can revolutionize the best way the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR fitness center and produce a long time of expertise from creating a number of the largest health expertise corporations on the planet. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.
All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators have to have a ardour for the tech and trade they want to break into, and in addition to construct rapidly and keep near the voice of the client to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.
Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to one of the best ways to gather person suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.
Do you will have any small ideas so far as the way you go about intelligently accumulating that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you will have particular issues that you just do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with accumulating the suggestions?
Cix Liv: Should you talk with an individual, like, straight, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by 4Chan and speaking to somebody by their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?
should you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on every part. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which after they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “properly, I believe it’s best to, you recognize, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I believe it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss if you’re talking to their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Often [00:02:00] the customers that you just’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?
And also you’re often getting not numerous the suggestions of the people who simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t need to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?
So for these, you’re gonna need to, like, discover it anecdotally by, like, Fb posts or dangerous critiques, and this is the reason I’d all the time chase the dangerous overview individuals. Should you’re constructing that client product to know what’s churning individuals from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I believe that getting these three views and perhaps bucketing individuals in these three issues, is an effective approach to iterate in your product.
Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.
Ryan DeLuca: And it appears like, I imply, the troublesome half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the adverse critiques, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you need to like clarify it. And slightly than get extra details about why do they suppose that, and what would they like, how would we modify it? Typically you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the group as a lot as you probably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us truly within the fitness center. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply attempting to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.
Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our type of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Those that, after they do strategy it, it’s like this, you recognize, they’re perhaps rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these individuals which might be not less than passionate sufficient to provide us the suggestions that we are able to hearken to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Admire that recommendation, man. That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Yeah.
Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you just’re doing. So, um, now not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm known as REK and we’d like to be taught much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you resolve to start out that and, uh, inform us slightly bit concerning the product.
Cix Liv: The most recent firm I began is REK. So it’s type of a mixture of the 2 prior corporations within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the largest studying was how can we attain the individuals exterior the headset? How can we make it attention-grabbing for individuals to look at? Should you mix that with health, which you recognize, is for my part the largest use case of headsets, the information means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as anything in VR.
Yeah, truly, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we seen. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when individuals used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.
So the common utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However after they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what individuals are doing and we have to make it cool for different individuals to look at.
The most important studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, you recognize, I consider essentially it’s the largest use case of HMDs. Um, so should you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you recognize what is basically sports activities. Proper?
I began this firm underneath this premise that, you recognize, sports activities are going to be the subsequent large factor. And the rationale I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it type of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And numerous AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my good friend who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?
Or like, “you need to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the individual’s already there. A basketball is, you recognize, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise attempting to unravel an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?
So, you recognize, there was lots of people who have been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “properly that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re finally simply gonna churn out and do the actual factor.” Proper? This is the reason I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the last word objective is if you turn into ok at it, you flip into the actual factor.
What I grew to become fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And after they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively comparable. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you can’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you possibly can’t kill your good friend in basketball.
Sci-fi motion pictures type of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities may appear like, and typically you don’t need to combat towards the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply observe by with it.
I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.
He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you recognize, one of many issues he’s all the time been actually desirous about is, what are legitimate use circumstances of AR that may truly exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag sport that gained the primary place for an open pc imaginative and prescient contest final yr.
And mainly I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you recognize, like, we must always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we have been testing issues like House Pirate Coach Area.
So House Pirate Coach Area, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag sport the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we have been testing video games like that, and initially, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the best way that you just draw the Guardian with the Quest was a large nightmare. So it needed to even be even greater than that. And if it was exterior, we’d need to hotspot it, and it will solely work throughout sure occasions of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other enormous factor that we seen, is that if you truly bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.
It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It needs to be AR if you’re working. When you introduce working, there needs to be augmented actuality.
Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled truly working in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d need to, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.
Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, should you’ve performed any boxing sport in VR and punched something, proper? I bear in mind I punched a desk one time and my entire hand was bleeding, however I didn’t understand till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”
Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.
Ryan DeLuca: There may be much less ache notion, so I suppose that could possibly be good and dangerous. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a cause.
Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually known as VR to ER?
Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are displaying them destroying issues or hurting themselves.
Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As properly. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you try this one time, then you definately’re not fascinated by being within the expertise. You’re fascinated by hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me once I was, uh, I used to be enjoying one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as arduous as I probably may. Yeah, I’m not enjoying that anymore.
Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] working, that concern turns into a lot extra realized.
Preston Lewis: Fascinating.
Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The way in which these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on high of the individual. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a good friend. And simply slam into them. Proper? I essentially consider that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it needs to be AR, should you’re like working and doing stuff like that.
However there’s large, large challenges with AR. One of the vital apparent ones, should you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move by headsets, they don’t truly phase the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up taking place is that every part renders in entrance of the individual. So say that you just’re, like, competing towards another person. Proper? And that individual is there and also you wanna put a objective behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the objective must render in entrance of them. It will probably’t reduce the individual out and render the item behind them.
So you need to do immensely difficult technical stuff to unravel one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same downside in VR the place you need to, like, phase the individual out. So you need to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same individual, the place the individual is, after which you need to make it possible for the individual is synced correctly.
After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the objective that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small objective, however it’ll render in entrance of the individual, even when they’re, like…
Preston Lewis: That’s attention-grabbing. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s attention-grabbing.
Cix Liv: This is the reason, you recognize, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a very easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the rationale we did spell duals have been, okay, you’re punching. This can be a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many greatest issues for me that I decide as successful standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So if you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to know how one can play a sport is extremely vital. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper probability that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that needs to be, like, as slender as attainable.
So we began, okay, you’re punching on the individual, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the rationale it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t need to render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awoke and we have been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was primarily based off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?
Like, we are able to’t have targets behind them. We will’t do all this different fancy stuff and not using a large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us have been simply, “properly, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s type of the rationale why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the best way it was.
Preston Lewis: Small little word there for our customers, type of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with person suggestions and letting that type of information product selections. That was a very good instance you simply gave of enjoying within the sandbox of what the expertise can truly do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as attainable within the expertise. So, that’s good.
Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why individuals appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to truly watch it from the skin. What you actually put a give attention to with REK, was making it in order that different individuals can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda capability?
Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of serious obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Once you’re watching a soccer sport otherwise you’re watching a soccer sport or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digicam existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions in every single place, you wouldn’t have the ability to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which might be vital, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you possibly can’t do numerous the shit that you just’ve performed in VR with all these cool environments. Mainly the surroundings nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You possibly can’t have a fancy surroundings should you’re attempting to spectate. So, I believe that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We might need to render one thing totally different for the gamers contained in the headset than what individuals exterior see. So, like, within the headset you’ll see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?
Like, all these design selections that you just’re gonna need to make, that you just wouldn’t need to even take into consideration in VR, should you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The final word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch will not be gonna be a spell duel sport in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we have been simply, you recognize, what’s the most simple factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the planet can perceive? And yeah, that’s type of the place that got here.
We’ve been engaged on fairly a number of totally different sport ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.
Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.
I don’t know if there’s anything you needed to say about creating REK and like the selections that have been made round that.
Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we truly went by the method of attempting to get into the LBE sport and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…
Ryan DeLuca: Location primarily based leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?
Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we have been like, okay, Sandbox has all these areas, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you recognize? So then we have been like, “okay, so we’ll ship individuals {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we have been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 yr previous contemporary outta highschool attempting to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half attempting to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we have been simply, you recognize, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. You recognize, we couldn’t afford to even attempt it.
So we’re going again to approaching it as creating client product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the buyer facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our greatest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you truly get individuals to convey a headset exterior? And I believe that’s an unsolved downside. And the best way I like to clarify it, in probably the most succinct means attainable, is REK is [00:17:00] attempting to do to headsets what Niantic, you recognize, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get individuals to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.
I do suppose that sooner or later we might return into LBEs, however it’s possible gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you recognize, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you recognize, we didn’t have the cash to try this. Proper?
Preston Lewis: We’ve seen that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many belongings you’ve performed, you and the staff have performed rather well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising. We type of talked about the viral movies and issues that you just did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks as if it’d be simple to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to combat the notion within the early days, not less than that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy individuals.
However you guys have performed simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even trying on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the staff on making the tech look cool.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a very good level. So many occasions some new VR health factor comes out or exercise sport, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising. And clearly that’s not crucial factor, you recognize, in numerous experiences. Like, we all the time speak about Minecraft, for instance, you recognize, beginning out extra pixelated type of stuff.
It’s all the time, like, man, individuals wanna look cool. Like, you recognize, such as you mentioned, it’s like no person needs to trip a Segway, however we’ll trip a cool chicken scooter down the highway. Proper? You recognize, it’s like the identical factor, only a totally different configuration. So, such a very good level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff appears to be like fashionable and funky, that individuals wanna be part of it.
Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you type of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you will have the type of the dorky type of graphics and stuff, after which you will have you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually vital, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that software of contrasting. Proper?
And displaying individuals, like, it doesn’t need to be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve performed a very good job with that.
Cix Liv: You’re speaking concerning the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.
Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.
Cix Liv: I imply, to be sincere, Meta is making it fairly simple, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry prematurely. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so dangerous that it’s taking down our entire trade.
I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a foul product, that’s taking down the complete VR house. As a result of if you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to individuals about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty trying Zuck avatar and, you recognize, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house appear like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I believe it’s such a foul allocation of assets, and it’s such a foul search for headsets that it’s truly hurting all of us.
Ryan DeLuca: A number of the commercials they make are wonderful. You recognize, after they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this enormous factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?
As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they will make or break it, you recognize? And in the event that they do an amazing job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it may convey us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.
Cix Liv: I’d look into the PICO if I have been you guys, I don’t know should you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is every part the Quest 2 ought to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s every part the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as an alternative, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, however it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the load was already an enormous downside. I simply I don’t get it.
Preston Lewis: You talked concerning the AR, VR experiences that you just’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences as we speak? And what makes ’em good?
Cix Liv: I actually like this sport known as Blaston. I used to be enjoying it loads within the pandemic. So it’s a twin sport, it’s one v. one, and also you’re capturing these numerous pace projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up turning into, is like, you’re having to do numerous dodging… it’s actually energetic. I believe I hit like a thousand energy an hour enjoying that at full depth. I actually appreciated that.
The very best sports activities kind sport in VR proper now might be Nock. So should you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you type of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re capturing arrows at a ball.
I believe my greatest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You may make the perfect graphics on the planet, you can also make an amazing storyline, you can also make regardless of the fuck particle results which might be wonderful. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.
And you recognize what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. Should you take a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for probably the most critiques on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the rationale for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion technique. And the locomotion technique is mainly you working in your fingers. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any way. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s mainly like tag for youths. And the youngsters are in there and it positively will get offensive loads, so perhaps that’s why they’re not in the principle retailer. Nevertheless it’s mainly youngsters working on their arms, yelling at one another. And that grew to become the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply working like this.
Preston Lewis: That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.
Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m attempting to reload a gun in one in every of these difficult type of first individual shooters, I suppose my definition of VR, they’re all first individual, you recognize?
Nevertheless it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m attempting to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little components of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I may get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d most likely like, you recognize, don’t have any downside.
However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.
Cix Liv: You recognize Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games have been type of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would mainly remedy puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is mainly similar to Time Disaster on rails when it comes to, like, the psychological math and what it is advisable to do. You recognize, you’re going from extraordinarily advanced, and dynamic and wonderful graphics into, like, mainly Cel Shaded Time Disaster.
It was his most profitable title. And, like, I believe numerous sport builders are mad about that. They usually go, ” why can’t we’ve got wonderful graphics? Why can’t we’ve got dynamic storylines? Why can’t we’ve got all this different shit?” And it’s like, properly, if it doesn’t really feel good, individuals are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?
Preston Lewis: You type of alluded to designing in sport mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and other people keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade as we speak?
Cix Liv: Nicely, if I informed you that I’d be freely giving my secrets and techniques.
Preston Lewis: There we go.
Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged every part.
Preston Lewis: Superb, inform us your first identify, then. Superb. Simply inform us your first identify.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?
Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your delivery identify?
Cix Liv: I believe which you can type of, like, paint the image of what I believe goes to be the longer term primarily based off what I’ve mentioned prior to now. Which is, you recognize, low cognitive load, simple to know, cause to placed on the headset is energetic, you recognize, attention-grabbing for individuals to look at. After which the largest concern in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of occasions I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety % of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”
Sincere to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you recognize, I can’t try this due to Fb platform management. I can’t try this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t try this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t skilled to work exterior, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t try this as a result of, you recognize, the second you set a weight in your hand, it may possibly’t detect your hand anymore. So you possibly can’t quantify the health.” Proper?
One other large concern with growing for AR, is that you just don’t have entry to the digicam information, it simply mainly is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no dying digicam in it, so you possibly can’t simply phase gamers out. You recognize, there’s some like laser tag ideas that individuals have made with the Quest. They usually create this video and it makes it look so good.
It’s, like, “okay, there’s individuals of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind packing containers they usually’re capturing at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking wonderful.” Proper? And then you definately go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is inconceivable”. Like, initially, you possibly can’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, individuals on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you possibly can’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous concern. After which I discussed the difficulty of, like, rendering individuals on high of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?
So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You possibly can within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map the complete scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that individuals present are very conceptual, as a result of you possibly can’t truly do numerous this shit.
The factor that’s aged me probably the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety % of something that you just consider.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s attention-grabbing, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you recognize? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s obtained a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for individuals to get the headset.
And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you recognize, we’re caught in, uh, you recognize, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you recognize, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of we’ve got to have some kind of approach to do exterior monitoring of arms and fingers, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.
And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we want to have the ability to have mainly the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you recognize, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly may use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you recognize, as a result of we’re doing numerous punching and slicing and actions, or they cope with occlusion as [00:29:00] properly.
So, you recognize, it seems like every part’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you recognize, if we may simply get that in order that the sphere of view is slightly bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply type of like guess slightly bit round, it could possibly be actually attention-grabbing. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about inconceivable with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you recognize? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we wish? It could possibly be tomorrow, it could possibly be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It could possibly be three years from now and we simply don’t know.
You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding group. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding group, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s as we speak. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior sport, however it may need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not numerous traction prefer it did. They usually’ve taken numerous that stuff away, particularly talking concerning the Quest platform, which is the largest platform as we speak, in fact.
Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your excellent AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. Nevertheless it appears like it’s staying throughout the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s at the moment [00:30:00] obtainable. Making an attempt to future solid slightly bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, should you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.
You talked concerning the spectator facet of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous vital in Black Field VR. We all the time say that the good factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you can construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to really construct a title that’s type of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and then you definately gotta construct it once more. So, that’s enormous. We completely agree.
And never just for the enjoyable of the person, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes could possibly be wonderful. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so appears like the identical web page there.
In fact provides you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And mainly, simply, we have to someway crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.
Cix Liv: I’d attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you recognize, the 2 predominant focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very critically. There’s additionally a very attention-grabbing cause for that, by the best way.
In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you possibly can play a online game per day. And should you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget, you get away of that limitation. In order that’s truly one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they will persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget and never a sport gadget, they will truly get away of that limitation.
That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.
Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, man, we’ve realized a lot from you. I believe we obtained like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, to date. So, uh, actually admire it. I believe to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard loads about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and slightly little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?
Cix Liv: I suppose you’d need to observe my Twitter.
Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.
Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m prepared to reveal every part concerning the previous of how I obtained so far, however a number of the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to preserve underneath wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion utility that permits you to spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you recognize, all of the stuff that sports activities have.
I believe one of many large issues I wanna go away individuals with, that’s one thing that, could be a light-weight bulb second. Is after we have been doing our checks, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been a number of various things that occurred that made me suppose we’re occurring the best path.
Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who have been, you recognize, the boyfriend was going to go play towards his good friend. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was enjoying towards his son’s good friend, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you recognize, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he may see his son and he may see how he was enjoying his good friend and all this different stuff. And so these moments have been actually vital.
However the factor that actually gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, initially, that girlfriend could be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and enjoying League of Legends?”
Like, you recognize, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was taking place, as a result of she’d don’t have any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is going on. Proper? And so that may’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, regardless that it was, you recognize, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was taking place. And so my large obsession with this house is that I consider if we nail this, that is greater than the complete XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.
And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities turn into greater than the complete house, as a result of it may possibly get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You recognize? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you recognize, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we cope with in our house is one other query. However, you recognize, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis we’ve got. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as all the time, we’ll put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to get entangled in what he’s doing. Actually admire it. Thanks once more.
Thanks for listening to the VR Health Insider podcast. Are you aware of anybody that ought to be on our present or have suggestions? Don’t neglect to electronic mail us at podcast vr health insider.com and observe us at VR Health Insider on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. It’s also possible to be a part of our Discord channel. Till subsequent time, preserve creating and dreaming up the subsequent large factor that can revolutionize the world of health.
